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Francis Howell North High School, St. Charles, MO + Atidim High School, Or Akiva
Dillemma 3 to Anna N.
To Andrea Dilema 3
Is there morality to suvival?
To Kendall !!!!!!!!!!
Fasting While Starving
dilema to anna w
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In order to stay alive in a place where the rules are against all normal society cods you have to swallow your pride and morality to keep your existence. In my opinion, there was no other way to survive in a dark place like �Aushwitz� with out playing by it rules. Life is the most sacred price of the man, and you have to do whatever you can and allow you self to do in order to keep it, even if it means that you have to march in step at the end of a long day. Elli have no choice but to tech his father this customs,
By not doing it he knows his father get hurt.
About the religion question: as non-believer person I agree with Eli�s statement which is, how you can pray to something that created so much hate that lines in the death camps. But than I remember �Euov� the prophet that believed in god no meter what horrible things happened to him, there are people that will say that faith is not negotiation with god. But, I guess that in this case god has gone to far�
Before I start - hello Michelle and Everybody!!!
I think people should pass only if they really believe in God, only if it cause them some feeling. praying and passing that came from abuse or fear didn't reach their targets. the belief gives people power to triumph over obstacles and difficults, it gives people another view about life.
Everything has changed this year in Eli's life. He is not the same pure child he was, he is much bigger and older boy now while he is faithing to survive. the life in Getto is difficult for everyone specially for children.
While everything is changing around you, the Belief is maybe the only thing that will stay with you forever, no-one can take it from you!
It is difficult for me, who came from secular family to understand
Eli's feeling , but I'm still thinking that he should pass. It can give him new power and hope to survive. Maybe he should give God last cnance to prove and show his power. Anyway, we can't judge him, no-metter what he will choose to do.
What you think about it?
I think that survival is something insode of us rather than something ethical. As an example, people and animals do anything to survive, they preffer the best for them selves instead of considirating on other beings. Survivak is a basic instinct of everyone, no matter in what situatin they are in, the person has to survive.
I dont really know what i would do in his situation, Eli believed in god he prayed for him and he had faith in him but as the days goes on he has less faith.
i really dont know what to say its a taugh question from the one hand if he is a true believer he should fast but in the other hand he sees every day those terrible things, the unhumen acts of the nazis those are getting his faith weeker and telling him not to fast.
Its a taugh situation when u see all those man and women suffering and in pain u ask youself why should i fast what good reason i have when god turn his back on me
on this hard times.
To fast on Kippur day is a long time tradition and a lot of people believe that a got forgive us for the all bad things that we have done this year. I think that if Eli feels that he believes in it, if he knows that he done a terrible mistake and he want god to forgive him so he probable should fast, but if he doesn�t feel that way so he should not fast. He has a bad time now so we might say that he does not has a great and a normal food now , therefore maybe now it is not a good time to fast.
1)As far as Survival, that is the only thing on these peoples minds at this point in time.You see in the story sons almost killing their own fathers over a piece of bread. That alone in my mind is tramatic experience that no one should endure. The people who actually lived through that must have been very strong minded and pure at heart. I know physically I would have probably died because of all the emotional,physical and mental abuse.
2) Elie fasting would be an outrageous idea. I fhe didn't eat he wouldn't have been able to protect his father and live on to tell this heartwarming novel.
Yet,if he would have fasted maybe all the pain he survived would have gone away a lot sooner. This is a difficult question to answer because you would have been pulled between your own selfish feelings and the your will to survive.
i think that WW2 and the ghetto and all other terrible things that happend to the jews dont really connected to god. personally iam not really belive in god, a person should belive in him self not in someone spiritual. that the humanity never saw him, some people think that the ghetto was the test for the jews from god, if they still belive in god after the war means that he are loyal belivers but this test is broke his limits and gone to far . but i think Eli should belive in himself first, and try to survive by his own. i think that praying is a waste of time for Eli Wiesel.
many jews prayed and it's not really helped them, they all were taken to the crematories.
my final word for Eli is to keep belive in himself first, and stop be dependent on god.
I dont agree with you this time. Although I dont really have a strong belief in a higher power, the jews in WW1 were persecuted almost entirely because of their religion. Some Jews only made it through each day because they had God to talk to, since the Germans had already killed much or all of their family. Dying isnt easy for anyone, but when you beleive so strongly in something like God and heaven, it may be easier in some senses becuse they were more or less going to end up with everyone they cared about. People in hard time need to think they have a higher power so they KNOW they arent alone, and wont end up alone either,
in my opinion, nothing should stop a person of surviving- no beliefe or morality should make a person to avoid to fight for living. once you decide to avoid it, you are a dead person.
i think that Eli could pray - because it wouldn't hurt him and maibe make him stronger - because that's the goal of praying -a kind of meditation, which heals or teaches a person. so as we know in the bible talled about heaven and how adam and eve were banished from heaven. i think one of the meanings of the story was to say that we decide what will happen to us (as humanity), and there is no one to blame but human for not building strong enough norms. in which people have to act to avoid genocides.
but i think that avoiding fast was the right thing to do because fsting, he would ruin his already wick body - what wouldn't help him to survive. by the way, in judaism a suicide means loosing the soul - which is muchworse than avoiding fast and "being punished". i want to make it clear, i'm trying to understand what a little, believing boy could think and how a believer could judge him, but i don't want to be cosidered as a believer, because i'm not.
Nina, i hope i didn't exaggerate with the belief stuff... hope to hear from you soon
The will to live is one of the strongest instincts that anyone has and in desperate times, this will can surpass all the moral and ethical limitations one might have. Like when the man killed his father over a crust of bread. I found it disturbing - most likely because I was looking at the situation from the views of today's society. The people in the the Holocaust were different. The horrors of that time had changed them. It was in those times of desperation that the most basic, animal impluses rise to the surface. It's the survival of the fittest. And what more did those people want than to live?
I also think that Elie was right to not fast on Yom Kippur. Like you said, he was already thin and malnourished. He needed all the food that he could get to stay alive. But I don't think that fasting would have been considered suicide because if he had died, he wouldn't have intentionally killed himself.
I do understand Elie's lack of faith in God during that time. But there's really no wrong or right if he wants to pray or not. That would have been for him to decide. Just because his faith wasn't as strong as before doesn't mean that he shouldn't pray, but if he sees no point in prayer, then that's just how he feels. I hope that didn't sound too harsh. lol.
Anyway, I guess that's it. I'll talk to you later. ^_^
I very very sorry for didn`t reply you sooner but we have had here a problem with computers.
However,Iwant to thank you for the lovely present you`ve sand.
I heard yuo prepered for some tests.I hope you past them successfuly.
And you can congratulate me for my birthday.
i think that the desision if he need to fast or not is vary hard desision and he sould diside what to do his desision should be what he belive in. if he belive in god than he sould fast because he belive that it will helf him in hus life. But if he dont belive in god then i think that he shouldnt fast because he dont belive in this then what for he need to fast if he dont belive in it. And i think that he shouldnt fast if all his frainds fast and belive in this and he dont!.
I agree that this decision is a difficult one. To Elie, it seems that this is the decision is the same as deciding if whether or not he believes in God.I believe that any God would be understanding in that situation and not punish anyone for just trying to live. I personally thought that he shouldn't have fasted. Not to show disrespect for God, but to survive. It was a day-to-day survival, not somewhere where Elie was usually comfortable and giving up his food would be suffering for God. He was already suffering, so why suffer more? One meal could be the difference between life and death and they needed to do everything they could to survive and show Hitler that they were stronger than the torturous ways he treated them. I can't wait to hear your opinion on this and I hope to hear from you very soon!
Delighted to see you getting going ALex and offering your readings of the dilemmas and the book. I enjoy reading your comments. Go for it !
Hello Kendall. How are you? I wrote to you couple of times but "Getting To Know" section doesn't work because of limit of messages%). So my letters were lost =(. Today everybody came to school with gas masks. Of course we didn't wear them,but it was funny anyway. Nobody takes the danger seriously because we used to it...What's going on in America? I heard that americans don't want war. For my opinion Bush does the right thing. This region fulfilled with oil and terror. Musulmans use a money from oil to continue terror. But Bush want to stop terror by physically destroing terrorist and by taking their oil. It's not good for all other countries because USA will have too much power,but for little and pure Israel it will be the most desirable thing that could ever happen. If I were him i would do the same. F**k politics. How are your studies? Have you begin to study playing something??? I'm waiting for your quick responce. Bye.
Excuse me Dima where is your discussion about the Dilemma?
And where is the thank you we discussed?
Wait till I get hold of you on Sunday.
Hi Joan. My dilemma is here,I wrote it two weaks ago. And I will thank Kendall next time if she'll find my message here.
You are quite right I have just read your enteries in this dilemma - and I enjoyed them.
If you have written in this dilemma you can move on to the next one - hopefully we will have some time today at school.
Take care and see you later Joan
Dear students of Or Akiva School and Francis Howell School,
I am the Israeli coordinator of your classes, and I don�t usually intervene in your discussions. As you are discussing an extremely sensitive subject, the crisis of faith in God during the Holocaust, we see that there are many differences in your perceptions.
I would like to share my thoughts with you. Wiesel tells the story of Rosh Hashana (the Jewish New Year) and Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), the two holiest days in the Jewish religion, because of what they symbolize: On Yom Kippur the person, who is a sinner by nature, asks for forgiveness from God, who oversees his creations, and passes judgment on that day. The individual afflicts his body and soul, through fasting and prayer, so that God will grant him life at the time of judgment. I think that Elie Wiesel�s words are a tirade against God�s justice for permitting the events of the Holocaust, and not a denial of God�s existence, and that is why he writes that this time he is the accuser, and God is the accused. Elie Wiesel today still believes in God, but something in his attitude to God has broken down and changed. This is part of his �night�. Is it possible that the murder of one and a half million innocent children is part of God�s plan?
What does a yes or no answer to this question mean with regard to my role as a person in the world? What is your opinion?
I want to end by attaching a very moving testimony about Yom Kippur in Stutthof concentration camp.
The first part of the dilemma- survival is a very obstruct thing and it has a strong connection to morality. There are many ways of surviving and resisting either by fighting or insisting on staying alive and not changing the way you live (in some ghettos they had a rich culture life of music, art and theater they insisted on keeping their routine). In my opinion he can�t betray his moralities only by marching��
The second part- the holocaust rent effects on different people, some came out of it with a stronger faith and some threw their faith away. The way that Eli reacts depends only on the type of person he is and the depth of his believes. I don�t think I can suggest him any thing because of my opinions about religion�..
I left some photos on the second dilemma (7th page). I think I�ll write about more general stuff till suterday
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